ok, so i dont know if i've told you about all my religion class debates. if i've told you this one, then ignore haha PS i like that pic ^ because it dosent say God isent real and wont offend =) click on the picture to see all the comic
well we were talking about capital punishment. my teacher said split up into sides, left was for, right was against. then he just let us go at it. we said that we shouldn't risk a deadly prisoner escaping. they said prisons were impossible to escape from (WRONG).
then they said that some people are killed, then later found innocent. true, but rare. we said when they are sent to death row, it still takes at least 6 months until execution.
then we said it was a great deterrent. they argues that prison was worst then death. they said that people have confirmed that. this is where i hate my religion class. my teacher interrupted and said that death was worst than prison. and when we tried to call them out for there mistake, he wouldent have it. thats what arguing is about, expanding on the others mistakes so that your point sounds better than theres. well needless to say, we were silenced and then the class ended. our teacher said that the against team won that debate. WRONG!!!!! we totally won. i lost most respect for my teacher at that point.
anyway, next class he said that the church says the death penalty is wrong, and so our laws should be changed making it illegal. wft? dident we start this country on the basis of separation of church and state? i know it was at least on of the factors. but wait, it dosent stop there.
the class after that, we argued wether or not abortion should be legal. same thing as last time. i was on the for side. now i probably sound cruel, but let me say that i think it should be legal, but i dont necessarily support abortions. personally, i think they should only be used in extreme things like rape, or if the mother would die if she had the baby.
well this time i personally had the opening statement. i stated that it was prove in the 20s and 30s that people would have abortions if it was legal or not. i said that a lot of people died because they would use hangers and things to give themselves abortions. i said that if people would have abortion anyway, why not make it a lot safer and more clean.
the other sides argument was that killing is wrong.
then we said that is should be legal in the case of rape.
they said killing is wrong, and the person should have the baby and give it up for adoption.
we said that it would be torture to ask a mother to cary around there rapists baby for 9 months. she would probably intently harm the baby, and could later develop a mental disorder.
they responded with killing is wrong...
noticing a similar response? well then class was over.
in the hallway on our way to our next classes, a couple of us were continuing the debate. they said how would we like it if our mom tried to kill us now. i said we are completely independent, where as if we were in our mother, we are dependent on her. then we got to class and our argument was over.
ok well the next day, our teacher said that since the church is against abortion, the US should be against it too. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE!!!!
Peace!!!
9 comments:
Hey kid... I don't have enough time to cover all the topics in this post, but, they are all difficult topics, to be sure!!
Life and death issues like these, have passionate arguments on both sides, and once you inject religious beliefs into the discussion, it's difficult to have a civil debate... You mentioned the well being of the mother argument, which I consider valid, but, look deeper into just that issue- rape and conception, and you can have a sub-debate about the intervention of a rape crisis facility, to deter the fertilized egg from implanting and becoming viable...So, you can argue till doomsday, and not reach consensus...
I believe in the separation of church and state, because of this, and really, most churches agree, for their own survival... If one religion was able to have the state enforce their beliefs, what would happen to the other religions?? So, your teacher is all wet, in her argument on that point, and really pushing a viewpoint that is not endorsed by the church...
As far as capital punishment goes, I believe that there is an alternative, in life w/o parole in the extreme cases, so, I really don't want my government executing people with my endorsement, even tho it might make someone feel good... That means nothing to me, and, no, I don't feel sorry for a murderer that is given a life sentence... I just don't want the crime compounded, by forcing me to agree with the extinguishing of a life ( as vile as that life might be), if there is a choice...
Oh, and, more and more, especially in places like Texas and Ohio, mistakes have been made, and not discovered, until the innocent person has been executed... I find this vile, so, that also supports the argument for life sentences, when there are errors like that- they're not as rare as you might think... Check with the 'Innocence Project' for info on that... stay well, kid- keep thinking!! lol luv, tman<3
geez Tman, haha i guess i dont know how to respond to this one. i see what your saying with everything. i do disagree with what your saying about the death penalty, but, places like Maryland very rarely use it, and so far haven't executed wrongly. Peace!!!
Hi there, Spys
I thought you said you didn't have anything interesting to talk about? :-)
I have to agree with you about your teacher - he seems to have his own fixed views on the subjects you're debating, and the "correct" answer is his answer. I thinks it's good that you're discussing moral and ethical issues like these, but I doubt that your teacher should even declare a winning side, let alone choosing the one that he wants.
And now for some specifics by subject:
1. Separation of church and state
As a general principle, I'm in favour of this - a state-sponsored religion offers far too many opportunities for abuse of individuals' rights. In practice, the outcome may not be what one expects. England still has an official state religion, the Church of England, but there is far less religious influence in politics in Britain than there seems to be in the officially secular United States.
2. Capital punishment
I am entirely opposed to this, and I'm very glad I live in a country that has banned it completely. I think my basic argument is a logical one: if it is such a crime for one person to take another's life, how can it be right for the state to take a human life?
The issue of a miscarriage of justice resulting in an innocent person being executed is also a very strong one. There have been plenty of cases in British law of new evidence coming to light many years after the original case, causing a guilty verdict to be reversed. It might hard enough to make restitution for wrongly locking someone up for twenty years, but it's impossible when you've killed them.
3. Abortion
This is a difficult and very sensitive subject. I think there are cases when it's justified. Since, as you say, people will have abortions whether it's legal or not, I think it's better to make it legal and ensure that it's safe. For a very interesting point of view on the subject, have a look at this post from Austin at Out Not Up.
Take care
Mark
Hey Mark, i see what you are saying on all three points. i think you'll agree, though, that death is a great deterrent of a crime. im not saying that killing the killer is righting a wrong, but hopefully it will help prevent murders.
and that post was very interesting. thank you for sharing it with me. Peace!!!
Hey kid... Just a few quick, follow up points... Actually, statistics show that the death penalty does not deter people from murder... It may actually have the opposite effect, undermining the value of human life through state law, and desensitizing the populace to the inherent brutality of taking a life, by the state, or others... The reality is, that in countries where the death penalty is used, the murder rates are far higher than in countries where it's been banned...
Oh, the other thing- Maryland... I don't know enough to comment intelligently on their experience with the death penalty, but, I find your argument a bit flimsy... I mean, how do you know, really, that they haven't yet executed an innocent person?? Usually, it takes decades to realize the failures of the system... Just ask Ohioans... Or Virginians.... Forget about Texans, they don't seem to care, for the most part, that they have (certainly) executed the wrong people!! Even when the DNA evidence is right in front of them!! Well;, there you go, kid!! Interesting points all... good topics!! luv, tman<3
Hi there, Spys
I'm afraid that I'm not much convinced of the deterrent effect of any judicial punishment, whether it's the death penalty or a jail sentence. I suspect that in most cases, criminals either don't care, or think they're not going to get caught. I don't think the murder rate changed noticeably in Britain after the death penalty was abolished here, and it doesn't seem to me that it's an obvious deterrent in the US at the moment either.
I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.
Take care
Mark
Oh, and I'm glad you enjoyed Austin's post. He's written a lot of interesting stuff - you might like a browse around the rest of his blog sometime.
Mark
When God is removed from people's lives, what's left? What hope does a person have? Kick God out of school, kick God out of government, actually we're not kicking God out of anything. We're only kicking ourselves in the butt. My arms are way too short to box with God! God wins every time.
God can't be taken out of anything. God is everywhere. Always has been, always will be.
haha ok so:
Tman, this is true, but i think you will agree that the US isent your standard country. we are much more agresive and in some cases bigger so you have to calculate that into it too. but you do have a good point.
and true, but the 8 people who have been killed in Md, half was done a time back so there is enough time in my book to count them as guilty. and people spend alot more time on death row then in places like TX so there is more of a time to find falts in cases
Mark, i agree to disagree too haha =)
and i think i will when i have more time
Andy, that is true for some people, and i respect that and in no way are trying to change ur oppinions, but in my own personal beliefe, God does not exist and is no where in my life.
Peace!!!
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